French Ambassador Dr. Thierry Mathou in conversation with Dawa Penjor at Drukyul’s Literature and Arts Festival 2024.
5 August
Good morning. It’s indeed a nervous feeling for me, having been out of Thimphu social scenes for almost more than seven years. Coming back from living in Gelephu, it’s a big honor for me to be here with Your Majesty, esteemed guests from outside, luminaries, and the young crowd who are going to be the future of both India and Bhutan.
It’s a great pleasure and honor for me to discuss the book you co-authored, “The Bodhisattva King: His Majesty Jigme Singye Wangchuck”. I feel blessed to have the opportunity to called Michel Peissel, who happened to be the first French guy to visit your country and write a book about it. The title of the book was “Bhoutan, royaume inconnu” – Bhutan, unknown kingdom. About 300 pages, quite interesting, but not enough for me to really understand.
Then there was something very strange. I was living in a small town in the southern part of France, in the middle of nowhere, no connection with Asia, no connection of course with Bhutan. And in this town, I don’t know why, there was a library, and in this library – I remember very well – in 1977, I found a booklet, a small brochure, 15 pages. I don’t know how this brochure came to this library, once again in a small town in the middle of nowhere in the countryside of France. This brochure, not so much text, only photographs, was about the coronation ceremony of His Majesty the King, the Fourth King, in 1974.
It was in ’77, 15 pages. I remember it because I found this brochure again once I was in Nepal, in a bookstore, and I bought it. At the end of this brochure was the list of all the dignitaries, officers from abroad. Actually, there were 17 countries invited to the coronation of His Majesty, and among them was France. The guy who represented France at that time was my distant predecessor, the Ambassador of France in India.
I said, “Wow!” Some people dream to become a billionaire, or to be famous, from this very moment my dream was to go to Bhutan. So I said to myself, “If you want to go to Bhutan, there are two ways: first, to become a scholar, an academic, and second, to become a diplomat.” At that time, I didn’t know that Bhutan didn’t have diplomatic relations with France, but anyway, scholar or diplomat, two ways. So I decided to go both ways, and here I am.
Then the second phase was a reading frenzy. I needed to know more about Bhutan, and at some point, I decided to read everything which has been written about Bhutan. I even said to myself, and it’s always my view, I must have one copy of each book written or edited in the world about Bhutan. I have a very large library on Bhutan at home, both in India and in France. And when I said it’s an obsession, actually, it’s sometimes irrational because I have books that I can read well in English, in French, Spanish, in Chinese, but I also have books I can’t read. For instance, I have many books in Japanese, lots of books in Japanese written about Bhutan, but I can’t read them. But it’s a fact, I mean, I like to have books about Bhutan. So I bought lots of books.
Then at some point, I decided to become a researcher, an academic, and of course to enter Bhutan because I’d never visited the country – and at this point, I would like to mention four individuals who were very important in this objective of mine to enter the kingdom: two foreigners and two Bhutanese.
The two foreigners: the first one was an American professor, Leo Rose. He was a professor in Berkeley, in California. He was at that time the specialist of the Himalayas, of diplomacy, and he wrote a book on Bhutan, “The Politics of Bhutan”. It was the first comprehensive book published in 1977, with some mistakes, but anyway, the first comprehensive book about the politics of Bhutan, and it was exactly my subject. He helped me a lot to better understand that, also to first connect to some Bhutanese.
The second was Michael Aris, of course, with his seminal book on the history of ancient Bhutan, who became a friend and also helped me to connect to the country. But still, I had to enter Bhutan, and here two remarkable individualswho helped me.
The first was late Lyonpo Ugyen Tsgering. At that time, he was Ambassador of Bhutan to the UN in New York. Well, I was Mr. Nobody. I mean, I was posted at that time in Washington. It was the beginning of my career as a second secretary, and I sent him a letter saying, ” Ambassador, I would like to go to Bhutan. Would you accept to see me?” He said yes, I went to New York, and as a matter of fact, he became a friend. I have a special thought for him because he was a remarkable civil servant and a close friend.
The second is Lyonpo Dawa Tsering, impressive guy. As you know, the longest-serving Foreign Minister in the world, from 1972 until 1998. I think that Ugyen Tshering informed the Foreign Minister that there was a French chap in Washington who would like to go to Bhutan. He has something in mind, he wants to write his PhD. So he asked me to write a 100-page document to explain exactly what was my objective. I sent it to Bhutan through the embassy, and one month after, I received a letter from Lyonpo Dawa Tsering. My wife Cécile is here, she still remembers – I still have this letter, of course. It was on this local handmade paper with fibers, you know. Yes, open it with the seal of the Royal Government of Bhutan, and it was an invitation for me to go to Bhutan.
So, first visit, spent one month, first visit and first audience with His Majesty the Fourth King. And I can tell you, this was exceptional. I was 26 at that time. His Majesty is seven years older than I am. Well, very humbly, I felt a special connection, and I was impressed.
I will tell you an anecdote. He knew, of course, I was French. What I’ve learned with His Majesty is that when you meet with him, he knows everything about you, about your country, about the context, about everything. He asked me, “Do you know Albert Schweitzer?” Of course, I knew Albert Schweitzer, but I was surprised by the question. Albert Schweitzer was a French doctor who received the Nobel Prize in 1952. He was against the use of nuclear weapons. I think that His Majesty had read a book about him, and he told me everything about Albert Schweitzer. It was very surprising for me, and we had a very long conversation. And once again, me, Mr. Nobody, in front of His Majesty the King.
This is how everything started, and here I’m still fascinated by your country, by your system, by your monarchy. I’m sure we’ll have the opportunity to discuss about this, but one of the reasons why Bhutan is so special is because its monarchy is special and unique in the world. [Applause]
Thank you, Ambassador, for sharing why and how you have connected to Bhutan. And I was just discussing this morning with Aum Pema, the Foreign Secretary, and she just said that as a young diplomat, as a young foreign officer, she looked forward to being with you because you are the first Westerner to write about Bhutan’s foreign policy. So that gives us such a warm feeling that we can understand Bhutan’s foreign policy through you. And she’s the first Bhutanese diplomat who speaks French. Yes. [Applause]
So, now we’ll get into the book, “The Bodhisattva King”, which was co-authored by you and Tshering Tashi in 2015 to commemorate His Majesty’s 60th birth anniversary. And it has wonderful articles, tributes to His Majesty’s legacy by different people. But you are one of the extraordinary who has made that. Now, my question is, as a Bhutanese and as a Buddhist, I understand the concept of a Bodhisattva, and I’ve been fortunate to be blessed to receive His Majesty’s love, kindness, and protection. But for a Westerner, it’s unique, it’s something unknown, the concept of Bodhisattva. So how would you explain it for a Westerner, and why did you choose the title “The Bodhisattva King”?
Well, of course, I’m not Buddhist. I’m not a specialist of Buddhism, but I learned about Buddhism. For me, as you say, in Western terms, a Bodhisattva is a remarkable individual who is heading to enlightenment for the benefit of all the sentient beings, with some specific qualities: compassion, loving-kindness, equanimity, empathy. Well, I have just described His Majesty the Fourth King.
When you see some of his decisions, his actions – I’m sure that we’ll have the opportunity to discuss – even during critical moments of the history of Bhutan… Let’s take the example of the crisis of the Lhotshampas. At the beginning, you know that His Majesty has done everything he could do to include the Lhotshampas in the mainstream, with compassion, with caring. Also during the crisis, when eventually, for the first time in the history of modern Bhutan, the army of Bhutan had to expel the insurgents – I mean ULFA and the Bodos – well, before this, long period of negotiation, of caring, of understanding why those people were there and what to do to try to convince them to leave the country.
And you know, a Bodhisattva, to some extent, is somebody who would renounce for himself the enlightenment, as I said, for the benefits of all the sentient beings. Well, on the 15th of December 2006, His Majesty announced that he would abdicate, two years before expectation. I’m sure so, most of you are very young, you might not remember this, but it was a shock for the nation, a shock for the government, a shock for the civil servants, for the people. It was also a big surprise abroad. I wasn’t so surprised – maybe we can discuss about this – but anyway, the very fact that the King decided to abdicate was a Bodhisattva act. So this is the reason why I proposed to Tashi Tshering the title of this book.
Thank you. I would like to also share an interesting anecdote. Having lived in Gelephu and being the General Secretary for Bhutan India Friendship Association, I get to interact with a lot of people across the border from Assam. And as you rightly pointed out about the military operation, which Tashi has also written about in the same book, I get to interact a lot with those people who have been militants and now they have come into the mainstream. I interacted with them, and one of the things that has clearly pointed out – they have not a single aura of resentment for Bhutan and what our King has done. And I think it is because of His Majesty’s Bodhisattva, the compassion, the kindness that was showed upon them. So it’s… we benefit, we realize why the Bodhisattva King has done what he has done.
Now moving on, in the same book, one of the chapters you wrote is about the Revolutionary King. Your portrayal of the Fourth Druk Gyalpo as a revolutionary king is extraordinary. So could you elaborate more on why and how he is a revolutionary?
Yes, absolutely. So as I said, his announcement to abdicate was a shock for everybody, but it wasn’t a surprise for me because I actually think it was the logical conclusion of a long process which started in 1972. I’m not saying that the King had in mind in ’72 to abdicate, but all his reign has been dedicated to leadership transformation. As a matter of fact, if I may say also, it was to some extent a distant echo to 1907.
The Genja – for the Westerners here, the Genja was the social contract, so to speak, signed by all the dignitaries of Bhutan in 1907 to give the power to the first king of Bhutan, King Ugyen Wangchuck. This was already exceptional because as I said, it was a social contract between the representatives, so to speak, of the people and a man, the first king.
So to some extent, the decision of His Majesty was, as I said, a distant echo to give back the power. When he started to be a king, he had to face four challenges, and throughout his reign, actually, he implemented reforms in order to reach this objective.
First, the main challenge was to increase the political awareness in the country. He did that through two main tracks. The first was planification because we have to remember that at that time, the level of development of Bhutan was not very high. So the planning started in 1961, but I tend to consider that the first two plans were not so relevant – they were largely under the control of India – the significance of the planning process in Bhutan started in ’71. In ’72, the King became the chairman of the Planning Commission, which was created, and actually, he was the chairman of this commission till 1991.
That is very interesting, the way he worked with this Planning Commission. He invented what I call the itinerant monarchy, sitting democracy. He used to tour the country – so at that time, still, I mean, difficult, often by walking – and sitting literally on the grass with communities and discussing with them about their needs. “We need a road, we need access to water,” etc. So getting the feedback from the people – this is democracy.
Then the second process in this getting increasing awareness, was the decentralization process with the creation of DYTs, GYTs planning committees at the level of Dzongkhags and Gewogs. This also was the start of democracy and as a matter of fact starting in 2011 the elections of Gups, of heads of villages was also the beginning of a process to empower the people. To some extent the election of Gups in 2011 was a kind of rehearsal of a mock election organized in 2007.
So first, this process of increasing the political awareness in the country. The second challenge was to invent a national ideology. I will not elaborate but clearly this is the role from my perspective of Gross National Happiness in Bhutan. Ideologies like socialism or liberalism were irrelevant in Bhutan compared to India for instance where socialism with the Congress Party has a role to play. So it was needed to create a base of consensus and national ideology consistent with Buddhism to give some kind of base to all the processes which were underway.
Third challenge was to increase social mobilization. So this is the story of the development of education system which led actually to the creation of the Royal University of Bhutan. You have to realize that this University was created only in 2003. Before that no University in Bhutan. His Majesty also introduced the media in Bhutan. Today internet and social networks are so popular in Bhutan but you know Kuensel, the national paper, created in 1967 as a national paper, it became independent in 1992. Then the introduction of TV in 1999 – each was a revolution but it was needed once again to increase the awareness of the people.
And then of course institution building with a first step in 1998 when His Majesty decided to give the executive power to the government. And then of course the Constitution, first draft in 2001. And I want to insist on the way this constitution was prepared. Of course there was a committee, 39 members with the Chief Justice as head, but His Majesty himself with at that time the Crown Prince once again went throughout the country to get the feedback. So as you see it was all process very carefully planned step by step which has always been the approach of His Majesty and eventually which led to this spectacular decision to abdicate.
If I may add, of course His Majesty – well it was his own idea but as I said initially the monarchy in Bhutan itself is a reformist monarchy. Each King actually brought something new to the country. First king reunified the country. The first unification was in the 17th century when happened feuds between different incarnations. First king reunifying the country. Second king had to face a major challenge – the independence movement in South Asia. Well it could have been very easy for the Union of India to absorb little Bhutan and at some point it was in consideration. So the king had to face this challenge to be sure that Bhutan would remain an independent country. Third King was the father of modern Bhutan with the first reforms, institutional reforms, with the launching of the planification, with the end of serfdom etc. And then of course Fourth King of course we just mentioned.
Thank you Ambassador. Now we’ll get into your expertise, your forte that’s foreign policy. In the same book you have written an article of His Majesty as an architect of the modern foreign policy for Bhutan. His Majesty’s tact, wisdom, astuteness in diplomacy is exemplary. And as a diplomat with long career in foreign policy what advice would you give to the contemporary diplomats based on His Majesty’s strategies, his vision? Should there be a manual for Bhutanese diplomats so that they can inherit the qualities of His Majesty and interact with the world based on His Majesty’s vision?
We should write this manual together with the Foreign Secretary actually. I would be very happy to do that. Well before answering to your question I would like to give to the audience a very short glimpse of what was the diplomatic situation of Bhutan in ’72 and what was it in 2006 when His Majesty decided to leave power.
In 1972, Bhutan was already a member of the UN but just for one year. The regional scene was not very secure. Bangladesh was just independent. Bhutan was the second state to recognize Bangladesh. Sikkim was about to be absorbed by India. The border with China was already sealed but there was still some pressure from the north with refugees coming to Bhutan. There was also some kind of friendly pressure from the south. What I mean is that the relation with India at that time was exclusive and unbalanced. By exclusive I mean Bhutan didn’t have any other relation except Bangladesh with other countries and for all foreigners who wanted to come to Bhutan of course no airlines ; they had to get an inline permit from India. In 2006 Bhutan had 21 diplomatic partners, was member of 150 international organizations, was a very active member of the UN and I wrote a book about this – the decisions, the votes of Bhutan in the UN were not systematically aligned on the votes of India and the relation with India was very different. As a matter of fact one year after His Majesty left power a new treaty was signed with India and the famous Article 2 of the treaty of 1949 saying that Bhutan was under the guidance of India for foreign relations was out. The relation between India and Bhutan came from dependence to interdependence. Today Bhutan is as much important for India than India is important for Bhutan.
So the situation was completely different and the King had this in mind the need of rebalancing the relation of Bhutan with India and by the way also the relation with China was quite different. Remember that in 1984 your country started border talks with China and even in 1998 you had an agreement on the peace on the border. So once again situation very different.
What was the vision of the king? With two qualities. First, and it’s for our diplomats to learn that and for maybe the young generation among you who’d like to become diplomats: first never twist reality. Bhutan is a small country between two giants. It will still be the case. So you have to admit the reality but at the same time it doesn’t mean that you don’t have objectives. And even in dealing with big neighbors you have to step by step bring them to admit your own approach, your own situation. It’s exactly I think what His Majesty the king did with the neighbors. So never twist reality and be very patient, very resilient, never provoke, just well take the time.
Thank you Ambassador. Your Excellency I think it will not take much time because I would like to open up for questions because I have a lot of questions to ask but I want to – I can see a lot of faces already excited to ask questions so I’ll open up for question and answers.
[Question from audience member]
Ambassador I’d like to ask you what kind of role can Bhutan play in enabling track two initiatives between India and China, India and Pakistan? A lot of track two initiatives now happen in Nepal or in Sri Lanka but we don’t really see them happening in Bhutan. Do you think Bhutan can play that role?
Well I wouldn’t dare elaborate on what role Bhutan – I think you should address this question to the Foreign Secretary. The only answer I would give you is from what I know about the history – Bhutan is very pragmatic in its diplomacy, very clever. By the way we should all learn – when I say we I mean France maybe we have to be very pragmatic in our initiatives.
And what I learned from Bhutan is that each time Bhutan takes an initiative, establish a diplomatic relation, it’s for its interest and it’s because it knows exactly what will be the impact, the result. Something which had a consequence for France – you know that in ’62 when the border was sealed with China, Bhutan took the decision not to have diplomatic relations with any of the members of the P5 so-called. Not because Bhutan didn’t think that France, or the US were bad countries but because Bhutan didn’t see any kind of interest to be involved with these countries at that time because Bhutan didn’t want to be entangled in world politics. I tend to consider that it’s the same for regional politics. So this would be my answer to your question.
[Question from another audience member]
Hello, heartfelt greetings to Your Majesty, distinguished guests and everyone present here. I’m Sonam Yin from Sherubtse College and it’s a privilege and honor to be part of this wonderful event. So my question is for Ambassador – it seems like coming to Bhutan has played a significant role in your life in terms of personal development. So I was wondering what would you be lacking or missing out if you had never visited Bhutan?
Well you know as I said I had two ways to be able to come to Bhutan – as a diplomat and as a researcher. Because we don’t have diplomatic relations with Bhutan – well don’t say it to too many people but one of the main reasons why I was keen first to be Ambassador in Thailand or Ambassador in India is that there was direct flight to Bhutan. Even if I’m very proud by the way to be ambassador of France in India of course. But if I hadn’t been a diplomat I think that I would have been a scholar and I would find my way to come to Bhutan to work and study.
I don’t want to put you on the spotlight but I heard stories that you even took a demotion to be close to Bhutan.
Yes.
Any more questions? Any questions? Anyway, looks like – let the crowd think about it but I have – in your article, there’s an article that you wrote “The Politics of Bhutan: Change in Continuity”. You coined the concept of change in continuity to describe Bhutan’s political evolution. How does this concept relate to the theme of the festival – enlightened, evolve and evoke?
Well this change in continuity is a very important concept I coined it to describe the process of development, of modernization in Bhutan because transformation actually is not an objective by itself. What was most important of course for the monarchy and for the King was to preserve the identity, the culture of Bhutan. And why? Actually because once again being such a small country sandwiched between two giants, it’s because you have this unique culture that you are still independent. Ask yourself a bit – how a country which was initially created so to speak spiritually and culturally from Tibet succeeded to remain independent? I often read in the Western literature that Bhutan is a little Tibet. No, Bhutan is not little Tibet. Bhutan is Bhutan. You might have a strong connection with Tibet but Bhutan is different.
Second, how do you explain that such a small country succeeded to be independent throughout all the British Raj? Exceptional. Never been part of a colonial empire. I ask to the audience – do you know why? Have you asked yourself why your country was still independent? It could have been easy for the British to try to grasp Bhutan as they did with India. So I think there were two reasons. First because obviously it would have been very difficult and costly for the British to keep control on Bhutan because of the geography. They would have to maintain lots of army. And the second is that they needed Bhutan to be a bridge to Tibet.
Third, how can this tiny country still be independent between China and India? Well only one answer – its culture, its identity. So this is the reason why this process of modernization is not only about change but also about continuity – change in continuity.
So when we talk about all the themes – we have to evoke the past, the history, the story of the monarchy. As I said all the monarchs have been involved in this process of transformation, of leadership transformation. The second word of evolve so is transformation, is modernization. And enlightened – so I think we just talked about the reign of His Majesty the Fourth King. So it’s an enlightening reign.
Thank you. All good things have to come to an end so even our session I’ve been informed has come to an end because we have limited time. With this I would like to thank you Ambassador Thierry for your excellent book firstly with Tshering Tashi and at the same time for your love for our country. I would love you to actually groom more Bhutanese so that we can understand our foreign policy well and then actually love our country better. Thank you so much.
At the same time I would like to pay homage to Her Majesty. I remember in 2010 when the Mountain Echoes started, most of the attendees were officials. I was one of that – back then I was working for the government. I was one of the back benchers there because a lot of senior officials were in the front line. And it always intrigued me how this was going to transform the literary festival. Then I saw gradually the number of Bhutanese authors were increasing and not just the authors but younger authors. That shows the sign that it has taken roots. And as Her Majesty yesterday pointed out that Bhutan should go to the world and I know that I have faith that our young audience will take it forward.
Thank you Your Majesty. If you allow me, I would like also to say thank you. Your Majesty first of all for this event which is a great event, for your presence. And I would like to add a special mention for my friend Tshering Tashi. He has of course a special responsibility in the festival. We co-authored the book and I must say that about him he has one idea each minute. It’s very difficult to cope but I’m very happy to work with him on a regular basis. Thank you very much.
Just before we go – next year we will be celebrating the 70th birth anniversary of His Majesty the Fourth Druk Gyalpo. We have to think about a new idea.
Yes, Thank you so much.
